It is Necessary to Pretend Woman Have Historically Been Warriors?

Executive Summary

• This article is a debate between a woke individual and me on the history of women in combat roles.

Introduction

I made the following comment on a YouTube video that showed a clip of The Rise of Skywalker. This miffed someone who thought I  was not representing female combat history accurately.

Star Wars had two good movies — the first and second. The rest are are fan service. Why is a woman cast as a warrior. Women have never been warriors in history. Get a grip. Any society that used its women as warriors would get it ass kicked. – Me

The response to my comment.

Um, there have been a number of women warriors in history. This trilogy, however, is complete trash.

My response.

Really? Who? You know Joan of Arc did no fighting and was basically a mascot.

The response to me.

Your opinion is noted, but history disagrees. And aside from Joan, there was also Artrmusua I Of Caria, TRIỆU THỊ TRINH, NAKANO TAKEKO, TOMOE GOZEN, QUEEN BOUDICCA, GRACE O’MALLEY, LOZEN, ZENOBIA, Lyudmila Pavlichenko (nicknamed Lady Death), the 588th Night Bomber Regiment (whom the Germans nicknamed “Night Witches”, and feared). History has its share of women warriors. And by your logic, no field commander does any actual fighting and is “just a mascot”.

My response.

Again, Joan was a mascot, not a field commander. She did not fight herself and she had no fighting or military experience. So no, the analogy you provided is entirely incorrect. Joan inspired people, which is why I have categorized her as a mascot. Now you are listing a series of button pushers. I am aware of Pavlichenko, but she was a sniper. Women are actually more accurate than men at sniping (they have less tendency to muscle the rifle), but they can’t tolerate the physical conditions in most cases (snipers often have to poop on themselves and have bugs crawl on them and not move). You can come up with some button pushing women, but this character is a sword wielding warrior. Do you know what would happen if we had competitions between male and female sword fighters? Women would get annihilated. There is reason we don’t take females hitting males as seriously as males hitting females. The potential to do damage is not the same. So no, history does not disagree with me. Cherry picking button pushing women does not contradict my statement. Look, you are weaker than men. Deal with it. In history, warriors, particularly any fighting requiring physicality were men. Do you see any women in special forces? No. How about the infantry? Testing shows that even in the infantry (which is carrying a rifle and a pack) women get injured with far higher frequency. Men do not only nearly all the fighting historically but nearly all the physically demanding jobs. Do you see women trying to get into road construction, plumbing, house construction? I have to listen to women tell me a fake history and then claim they are doing everything men do — but then they can’t and don’t do these things. Women have been surrounded by men who patronize them and tell them they can do anything men can do. It’s ridiculous. This is not to say women don’t do things. They are better at different things. But putting these women in these roles is just not believable.

His response to me.

Bruh, you have some serious issues. You clearly don’t do any research and just insert your own opinions on the matter. In ancient Japan it was commonplace for women to train along with their husbands, both to be able to defend themselves while the husbands were away and on the battle field should they be needed. Feel free to believe what you want, but history has its stories, whether you believe them or not, doesn’t change what history records about them. And FYI, I’m not a girl you sexist moron. I work with women, my boss is a woman, and when I’m not at the job for whatever reason they’re more than capable of doing the heavy lifting. My boss makes sure everyone does their part on the job.

My response…

And here we go with the insults.

I just presented historically true things, and by the way, I have an extensive research background. Yes, what you said is true, but it is misleading. Spartan women were also taught to fight. However, that was as a last resort. If the village was overrun, then women had to fight. But they were not the warriors that were sent out in either Japan or Sparta. You have mischaracterized what those women in Japan did. You think this is “history,” but it is you mischaracterizing history. You try to find examples that prove your view, and in each case, its some cherry picking on your part. Think of this question. Where there any female knights? There is Briane of Tarth in GOT, but that is a fictional character. Why do you not see female knights? Who fought in the Civil War? Mostly men or mostly women? How about WW2, what percentage of the combatants were women? And then, why?

Sexism is seeking to diminish women. It is not stating facts about what they have historically done or what they currently do. And think it through. That is great that you see women who lift things at work. But they are still weaker than men. Women are even weaker than their bodies dictate because they don’t seem to have the same ability to push through mentally. I do notice a few exceptions like female bodybuilders, and Cross-Fit. But I think many of those women are on male hormones. I have been working out in gyms for around 35 years, and I see a strong tendency of women to stay away from significant exertion. I have never been able to train any of my girlfriends because they just seemed to lack that ability to make that effort. I am stunned to find out you are a man. Most men know everything I am writing is true, but they will patronize women to make them feel better. If you get around most men, if there are no women around, they all start giggling at the idea of women as warriors. But as soon as the women show up, they tend to go back to hiding their true thoughts.

His response.

You use history and ignore the history you consider irrelevant.How is it misleading? You agree that the women were in fact trained in combat. It being a last resort doesn’t discredit the fact that they’re trained as warriors and most likely some have a number of kills under their belt. I don’t cherry pick through anything, I simply state my findings for you to try and find a means of discrediting.

Given that the title of knighthood is nothing but a royal reward for service in any field of endeavor, e.g. music, science, medical care, etc, yes, women have become knights. Women weren’t allowed to fight in the Civil War, but it’s estimated that somewhere around 400 disguised themselves as men and went to war, sometimes without anyone ever discovering their true identities. I’ve already covered women in WWII. And why would the “why” be important? The question isn’t about the “why”, it’s about the “where they there”. And for the most part, the answer is yes. Maybe not in number you’d consider relevant, but the fact that they were there proves that history does in fact have women warriors, be they with a sword or a bow, with a gun or raining death from a plane, they were there.

And now, I’m done with this “argument”. Whether or not you consider any of this in you idea of what makes a woman a fighter, is up to you. I’m done here, and will go back to reading more interesting stories about warriors like Tadakatsu Honda.

My response…

It is misleading because they were trained as a last resort, and you are presenting them as if they were a primary battle force. They were not used in the military. Mostly they are doing it because there are no other options. They are not warriors; they were let us call it Plan B. Obviously versus getting killed, you will try to defend yourself. But these women were not at the front. I also do not ever recall hearing a story where women fought off an advancing army that had defeated their men. I don’t know ever battle that occurred in history, but I can’t even recall this as a thing. The women generally don’t get killed in this situation. They are taken as slaves or concubines. And then it brings up the question of what their likelihood of survival is. Women cannot compete with men in fighting matters so that they would be taking an enormous risk in fighting. Probably the toughest women I can think of were the Spartan women. The entire society was dedicated to militarism. However, I could not find examples of Spartan women fighting or fighting off, say the Persians after the Spartan army was defeated.

Ok, you know very well I was referring to a fighting knight. I think the topic of this conversation is combat.

Ok….why were here no armored female knights?

Here is a quote from Wikipedia.

“When the boy turned 15, he became a squire. In a religious ceremony, the new squire swore on a sword consecrated by a bishop or priest, and attended to assigned duties in his lord’s household. During this time the squires continued training in combat and were allowed to own armour (rather than borrowing it).”

Do you see that there? Wikipedia says he. Not she. There were no female armored knights.

I don’t know what to say to your Civil War example.

Ok. So some women have seen combat in history. I think most likely, the men looked forward to fighting them. But I will acknowledge that some women and men snuck in here and there. However, considering I just looked up and found that there were 2.75 million troops who were in the US Civil War. 400 is .00014 of the number of men. That is beyond a rounding error.

The argument that it was sexism that stopped women from being in combat roles would not add up. When civilizations fight, everything is on the line, and the losing side eventually runs out of young fighting-age men. If women were the equal to men or anywhere close, they would have been drafted and utilized at some time in history. Maybe just the top 5%. But outside of very marginal cases, you outlined. When we add this to what we know about the physical differences between men and women, it seems that previous societies so the exact same differences that we do now. The difference is that with woke culture, we now have to say things that are not true so that we can gain social acceptance and virtue signal. I am not sure how far I would have to take this to be accepted. For instance, are midgets warriors? How about older men, are they good warriors? People with medical conditions like diabetes? There are many men the military won’t take because they consider them not fit for combat. In WW2, this was called the 4F designation. I am 50 years old. They don’t take 50-year-old men into combat roles either. I would be managing a warehouse or something if a war began.

Other Examples from History of Women in Combat

When discussing this topic with a few other people, the example of women in combat roles in the Israeli military was brought up. So I looked into it. If you read the following quotation, it looks like women have been very much involved in combat, and this has been used as an example of women taking on this role.

According to the IDF, 535 female Israeli soldiers had been killed in combat operations between the period 1962-2016 (this figure does not include the dozens of female soldiers killed in Israeli service prior to 1962).[4] Women have taken part in Israel’s military before and since the founding of the state in 1948,[5][6] fulfilling various roles within the Ground, Navy and Air Forces. The 2000 Equality amendment to the Military Service law states that “The right of women to serve in any role in the IDF is equal to the right of men.” – Wikipedia

However, then the more one looks, the less these roles appear to be real combat roles.

In 2014, the IDF said that fewer than 4 percent of women are in combat positions such as infantry, tank crews, artillery guns service, fighter pilots, etc. Rather, they are concentrated in “combat-support”.

Before the establishment of the state, women served in combat roles in the militias that would become the Israel Defense Forces.[6] The rate of women who took part in combat organizations stood at 20%.[3] At the years before the establishment of the IDF, military service for women existed in the lines of the Hashomer and Haganah organizations.

Most served as medics, communications specialists, and weaponeers.

– Wikipedia

This comment is from an article written in Isreal.

I am struck by the way both women and medical personnel turn a blind eye to the physiological differences between men and women, which are inevitably reflected in performance differences and can be detrimental to all – first and foremost to the young women who will pay the price when they are unsuitable for a task. We must not allow equality to come before preparedness and the ability to perform. – Haaretz

Testing

In repeated attempts to put women in actual front line combat roles, the results are consistent in that they show women unable to get through training programs in anything but the smallest minority, as the following quotation explains.

Thirty-seven women have attended the Marines Corps’ Infantry Officer Course at Quantico, Va., for 13 weeks of combat evaluations and mileslong hikes carrying heavy loads. Only two women have passed. Of those two women, only Lieutenant Hierl has been given a platoon of roughly 35 men to lead.

The definition of a Nazi has broadened considerably in recent years. Many now consider the statement of the reality of biological differences between men and women to be unacceptable. The biology professor who pointed out sex differences in this video was referred to as a Nazi and a fascist. 

Conclusion

This is the issue with our current woke culture. One must exaggerate anecdotes into entirely overstating the role of women in combat, to gain social acceptance. There is so much wrong with this. There are issues of stolen valor, of women pretending that their sex did things historically that they simply did not do. This would be like saying that many men historically performed childbearing and that it is just a stereotype that men have not given birth. Secondly, it is a waste of resources as women are being allowed to try out for combat positions and invariably wash out. It should also be noted that training does not prepare a person for actual combat. It attempts to duplicate it, but no one is being killed next to you. Therefore it is a bit of a lab environment. Whatever women’s performance in these training programs, their performance in actual combat would be worse.

But the “feel-good commentary on this was apparent from the New York Times article. These comments show the PC delusion that has taken over large percentages of adults.

While this concept of “a woman leading men into combat” is a major paradigm shift in the Marine mindset, I am hopeful that the actions of First Lt. Marina Hierl and the Marine Corps in general will continue to realize that women’s ability to succeed in the military is largely due to their intelligence, inner strength, dedication and willingness to do the job in addition to meeting the physical demands and expectations of what is required.

And

Nowadays, women have been continuous fighting for equality. People should take more efforts to really realize equality. I believe that we can have better future.

and…

As a woman in cardiothoracic surgery, another profession with few women leaders, I appreciate this article and the inspiration it provides to women seeking a career and a future. We know we have achieved gender equality when people begin to stay focused more on what you bring to the table than what your hairstyle is. The article describes how the Lieutenant wore her hair- I wonder if this were a man would such a comment have been made? Throwing micro-aggressive comments such as how a woman wears her hair along with how she leads might seem harmless but over time have been shown to continue the perception that women are not fit to lead. The we accept what makes us different, we learn how to make that diversity strengthen the team.

These comments are asinine and are not considerate of either women’s historical minute involvement in combat roles nor their poor performance in even being able to get through combat training. This illustrates that many people are simply living in fantasy land and working backward from what they want to be true to what is true.

References

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Israel_Defense_Forces

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/history-of-women-in-idf-combat-units

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-women-just-aren-t-cut-out-for-combat-roles-1.5730157

*https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/09/us/politics/marines-women-combat-platoon.html